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Bring back KPS ...but better
- Thread starter Winters
- Start date
-1.
-1
Here's what I've learned about gangrp as a gangrper:
Gangrp has many personal preferences, but at the end of the day it is extremely hard to avoid people you don't wish to interact with in such a "hardcore" way such as gangrping. The thrill of it is very fun, but as someone who joined gangrp for the roleplay and not for the danger of it, I believe that many reasonings for this are innacurate.
Now, here's an opinion from being an officer:
Roleplay is one of the biggest aspects of being part of this faction, and it can be hard or even discouraging to have to restart with a new character all because you were doing your job to arrest criminals and ended up getting killed. It is also far different from being a gangrper, because we get involved in situations with multiple gangs that are all against us (gang vs gang turns into 2 gangs, vs cops).
Overall:
The permissions and their rules were changed for a reason, and I don't see why they need to be changed back to an old system while the current one is working much better in my opinion. I also say no, becaude I can see the big possibility of an increase in temporary characters.
Here's what I've learned about gangrp as a gangrper:
Gangrp has many personal preferences, but at the end of the day it is extremely hard to avoid people you don't wish to interact with in such a "hardcore" way such as gangrping. The thrill of it is very fun, but as someone who joined gangrp for the roleplay and not for the danger of it, I believe that many reasonings for this are innacurate.
Now, here's an opinion from being an officer:
Roleplay is one of the biggest aspects of being part of this faction, and it can be hard or even discouraging to have to restart with a new character all because you were doing your job to arrest criminals and ended up getting killed. It is also far different from being a gangrper, because we get involved in situations with multiple gangs that are all against us (gang vs gang turns into 2 gangs, vs cops).
Overall:
The permissions and their rules were changed for a reason, and I don't see why they need to be changed back to an old system while the current one is working much better in my opinion. I also say no, becaude I can see the big possibility of an increase in temporary characters.
As someone who's been here since the times when KPS was gained for simply saying "I'll kill you" to someone else, I feel like I should comment on the evolution of KPS over the past 5 years (I'm sure many people here already know what I'm about to say; I invite you all to disagree with me if you'd like)
Now, I don't wish to invalidate anyone's opinion here. Both sides have valid arguments that should be taken into account instead of directly dismissed. Nevertheless, I'll personally stand with the current system for multiple reasons:
At first, KPS may sound like a necessary evil. Without it, people wouldn't make their characters fear death, considering they know they can't be killed without their consent. However, this isn't as simple as it sounds. You see, back in the day, pretty much everyone accepted that KPS was a thing. Sure, a lot of us considered it to be very annoying (At one point, I almost had one of my characters killed because he stood up to his bully saying "do you have a death wish", before getting lured into an apartment and getting NLR'd)
What I want to say is that KPS before 2022-2023 was very normalized. Even if many people disliked it, specially those who weren't too invested in GangRP, we all just kind of acknowledged that it wasn't gonna change anytime soon, specially given the old GangRP mindset and staff management that failed to stand up for themselves. Nevertheless, after a few meetings, staff eventually decided it was enough, and gradually started "nerfing" permissions for the sake of character development. Firstly, they made it so KPS would only be gained if there was a genuine threat to someone's life. Then, they nerfed it to make things fairer for other factions such as shopkeepers, teachers and EMS workers (calling police during shifts ≠ KPS), police officers (minor arrests / tasing ≠ KPS), etc.
Was it a smooth transition? Well, I'd like to believe so. There were a lot of suggestions like these that attempted to persuade staff and get them to revert these changes. However, as time went on, the new mindset thankfully focused more on character interactions instead of how many characters one gets to kill before getting arrested or killed back.
What I want to say is that KPS before 2022-2023 was very normalized. Even if many people disliked it, specially those who weren't too invested in GangRP, we all just kind of acknowledged that it wasn't gonna change anytime soon, specially given the old GangRP mindset and staff management that failed to stand up for themselves. Nevertheless, after a few meetings, staff eventually decided it was enough, and gradually started "nerfing" permissions for the sake of character development. Firstly, they made it so KPS would only be gained if there was a genuine threat to someone's life. Then, they nerfed it to make things fairer for other factions such as shopkeepers, teachers and EMS workers (calling police during shifts ≠ KPS), police officers (minor arrests / tasing ≠ KPS), etc.
Was it a smooth transition? Well, I'd like to believe so. There were a lot of suggestions like these that attempted to persuade staff and get them to revert these changes. However, as time went on, the new mindset thankfully focused more on character interactions instead of how many characters one gets to kill before getting arrested or killed back.
Now, I don't wish to invalidate anyone's opinion here. Both sides have valid arguments that should be taken into account instead of directly dismissed. Nevertheless, I'll personally stand with the current system for multiple reasons:
- Importance of OOC consent. While it may not seem that way, SchoolRP is one of the few roleplay servers that doesn't rely as much on OOC consent. There are several points in the rulebook that state what to do in case there's no consent from either party, which (unfortunately) tends to be the most common occurrence in confrontational situations. While it's good that the server has contingency plans in case there are disagreements between players, it shouldn't be the norm. As a matter of fact, the rulebook itself states that the preferred system for confrontations should be based on mutual agreements, which usually comes in the shape of P2L. I won't get into whether P2L is better than rolling, but what's true is that situations where P2L is involved rarely ever requires users to start arguments in LOOC. We can carry this logic over to KPS. While it's true that back then there were ways of killing characters without consent, it was much better to get initial consent to have a situation develop as intended by both parties rather than relying purely on luck and getting the other party to agree to suddenly losing their character in the span of 10 seconds.
- Character development. As a former member of the KPD, I remember hearing my old higher-ups repeating the fact that I should not get attached to my characters, as they'll inevitably die sooner or later. This mindset was something I tried to change during my term as Commissioner, simply because it caused faction members to treat their characters as soulless husks whose only purpose is to get as many arrests as possible before dying. Does this sound familiar? Indeed, this is the very same logic old GangRP used with KPS. GangRPers were indiscriminately forced to treat their characters as dummies whose purpose is to stab other dummies - Some were in favour of this, and some were against. What's clear is that many of the well-developed characters from 2019-2022 were lost due to this outdated mindset. While yes, many GangRPers may not really care all that much about their characters (refer to the concept of throw-away characters), their victims were not always the same. Had it not been for these anti-character-development permission guidelines, people would've given their characters a dignified and consented ending instead of an abrupt end to their work of literature.
- Other means to inflict character damage. Don't get me wrong; while I and many people in this suggestion disagree with what you're proposing, they're not entirely against permissions altogether. You can still do a lot of things against another characters under specific circumstances and with a different assortment of permissions: kidnapping, torturing (though mild one, given the dangers of GoreRP), blackmailing, vandalising, etc. Sure, some of these may require consent, but SRP's community has grown to be more permissive with what their characters are willing to go through. This happened precisely because people moved on from simply wanting to kill characters left and right to actually wanting to carry out interesting situations with one another.
- School roleplay; key word - School. SRP, as its name states, is meant to be focused on its school aspects. Sure, it does have some branches relating to different aspects of in-character society, but they're intended to be left in the background. If we rewind a few years back, GangRP used to be so prominent (partially due to how easy it was to acquire KPS and act on them) that it wasn't rare to see people stabbing each other with katanas right next to the Karakura Plaza. While this might seem fun, this ruins the immersion some characters have. Of course, Karakura is a city with an abnormally high amount of crime, but there's a difference between that and treating the streets of Karakura like the Endless Purge (sick movie btw). This phenomenon made it hard for players to properly develop a realistic response for their characters. Seeing someone getting killed in broad daylight is a traumatizing experience, so bystanders are now left with two options:
- A) React realistically and force their characters to undergo psychological trauma, all of which was not consented at all beforehand
- B) Ignore the situation, thus causing issues with immersion, as there will always be characters reacting to what's going on, making the overall roleplay scenario quite inconsistent.
Neeryu
Level 12
-1
Most points were already brought up, but I would like to look into something you mentioned: not being fearful of gangs anymore.
That is not a KPS issue, or perms issue in general. This is a FearRP issue.
Regardless of acquired permissions, players are supposed to have their characters behave as if their life is on the line. Being compliant, trying to evade, unless confident that the situation will have an outcome favorable to them. Rules for FearRP have been spelled out explicitly such as "have a weapon"/"have no weapon" but we should not even need to have this spelled out for this. It is common sense to be scared if someone poses a threat, such having a weapon and we don't. We shouldn't be "not scared" just because we know the other party doesn't have permissions on our character.
Permissions are simply here to create a frame. We have an immense and unexploited range of roleplay opportunities based on threats - threatening to kill, torture, stab, knock out... even without permissions, we can threaten! But the other party must be committed to FearRP. It needs good roleplayers!
FearRP is not a constraint. FearRP is not something we do "just because we have to" or "because the rules say we should".
FearRP opens a stupidly large amount of cool roleplay interactions, forcing us to be creative to have others lose their motive to injure us (regardless whether they had permissions or not).
TL;DR - I would heavily recommend exploring the applications of FearRP. You will find plenty players who enjoy being threatening or being threatened in their roleplay, as it creates a lot of interaction & drama. You do not even need to deal with consequences (detention, jail, etc.) since it's focused on the tension!
Most points were already brought up, but I would like to look into something you mentioned: not being fearful of gangs anymore.
That is not a KPS issue, or perms issue in general. This is a FearRP issue.
Regardless of acquired permissions, players are supposed to have their characters behave as if their life is on the line. Being compliant, trying to evade, unless confident that the situation will have an outcome favorable to them. Rules for FearRP have been spelled out explicitly such as "have a weapon"/"have no weapon" but we should not even need to have this spelled out for this. It is common sense to be scared if someone poses a threat, such having a weapon and we don't. We shouldn't be "not scared" just because we know the other party doesn't have permissions on our character.
Permissions are simply here to create a frame. We have an immense and unexploited range of roleplay opportunities based on threats - threatening to kill, torture, stab, knock out... even without permissions, we can threaten! But the other party must be committed to FearRP. It needs good roleplayers!
FearRP is not a constraint. FearRP is not something we do "just because we have to" or "because the rules say we should".
FearRP opens a stupidly large amount of cool roleplay interactions, forcing us to be creative to have others lose their motive to injure us (regardless whether they had permissions or not).
TL;DR - I would heavily recommend exploring the applications of FearRP. You will find plenty players who enjoy being threatening or being threatened in their roleplay, as it creates a lot of interaction & drama. You do not even need to deal with consequences (detention, jail, etc.) since it's focused on the tension!
-1, as an old GangRPER, I don't agree with this in general, GangRP wasnt roleplay anymore, and was just a way for people to collect bodies, we still do have some issues with it not feeling like roleplay, but now there are rules against it in place; like KPS/murder.. Either way, I wouldn't think there would be constant murder like there was back then on a tiny island like Karakura.
A lot of people also put so much effort into their characters, there are person connections to characters. You have to realize that people put a lot of effort into characters, even the more 'evil' based characters do have the people that play them that become attatched.
A lot of people also put so much effort into their characters, there are person connections to characters. You have to realize that people put a lot of effort into characters, even the more 'evil' based characters do have the people that play them that become attatched.
-1
Character death should be the be-all end all, absolute last option you think about in the lines of character development and progression. As it's literally the end of someone's involvement with a plot. The significance of character death cannot be overstated.
If you're forcing someone's character to die, you're taking away their agency and ability to tell their own story to push an agenda that doesn't really belong on a "school roleplay" server in my eyes. While I agree that crime RP should have some consequences, those should be exclusively for people that consent to those consequences and accept the risk involved - such a risk is agreed upon in some areas of crime RP. Otherwise, there is really... no demerit to leaving things in player hands to decide their own character's fates?
Character death should be the be-all end all, absolute last option you think about in the lines of character development and progression. As it's literally the end of someone's involvement with a plot. The significance of character death cannot be overstated.
If you're forcing someone's character to die, you're taking away their agency and ability to tell their own story to push an agenda that doesn't really belong on a "school roleplay" server in my eyes. While I agree that crime RP should have some consequences, those should be exclusively for people that consent to those consequences and accept the risk involved - such a risk is agreed upon in some areas of crime RP. Otherwise, there is really... no demerit to leaving things in player hands to decide their own character's fates?
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+1/-1
In my opinion, "fear of death" is a natural fear that your character should learn to adapt to. I don't think that the method of gaining KPS should change or altered however.
I think that it should be regulated to:
Life sentences = KPS (so, nothing here changes for KPD; they won't be under the mentality of "get as many arrests as possible before you die". Any gang member can KPS a cop if given a life sentence, which is rare and extremely difficult by itself to do.)
Deadly weaponry (example: stabbing, attempted stabbing, spiked bat usage, etc.) = KPS (again, not much changes in this department; this is the same rules that UVGs currently fight with, and in all the times that Sinnerous and Immertreu have fought over the span of MONTHS of being the only two unverified gangs, only ONE character has been killed without consent. Fittingly, Sinnerous had a funeral for this member and my character, who killed the Sinnerous member, grappled with his own mortality and its fragility as a result.)
The only thing I think that should be changed, is that if you are in a gang, you should be liable for KPS. This will be down through the amateur, street, and organized gang plugins. If you're a part of these gangs, your character can be KPSed through the current rules that apply to street and organized gangs.
I believe that people hear "KPS", and immediately think of how people used to get brutally killed in an +18 fashion in plaza, all for basically looking at someone wrong. I think, with the way gang roleplay is right now, it is feasible to regulate how KPS is used.
People who are active gang ROLEPLAYERS can usually agree on how the community has evolved, and I, for one, think would be able to maturely address and produce the added danger, risk, and somber writing necessary to base a narrative around non-consented KPS. At the very least, I know that Immertreu would mourn any member who died, and sentimentally address the act of killing during brawls, kidnappings, etc.
That being said, I think this means that the people who qualify for being "amateur gangs" should be regulated tighter. This means that a gang should, at a minimum, have a reputation for following the rules, actually ROLEPLAY, and have an established IC presence- which is basically how amateur gangs are ran now.
I don't think that people who are not actively trying to gang roleplay or involve themselves in organized crime, should be liable for being KPSed by gangs with 30+ members in it. The goal of KPS in gang roleplay shouldn't be to wrack up a body count of civilians who have nothing to do with the gangs that are actively rivaling your own. The "goal" of KPS should be what YOUR character is killing another character for. I believe that type of motive should only be held between people who are actually on a gang's roster.
In my opinion, "fear of death" is a natural fear that your character should learn to adapt to. I don't think that the method of gaining KPS should change or altered however.
I think that it should be regulated to:
Life sentences = KPS (so, nothing here changes for KPD; they won't be under the mentality of "get as many arrests as possible before you die". Any gang member can KPS a cop if given a life sentence, which is rare and extremely difficult by itself to do.)
Deadly weaponry (example: stabbing, attempted stabbing, spiked bat usage, etc.) = KPS (again, not much changes in this department; this is the same rules that UVGs currently fight with, and in all the times that Sinnerous and Immertreu have fought over the span of MONTHS of being the only two unverified gangs, only ONE character has been killed without consent. Fittingly, Sinnerous had a funeral for this member and my character, who killed the Sinnerous member, grappled with his own mortality and its fragility as a result.)
The only thing I think that should be changed, is that if you are in a gang, you should be liable for KPS. This will be down through the amateur, street, and organized gang plugins. If you're a part of these gangs, your character can be KPSed through the current rules that apply to street and organized gangs.
I believe that people hear "KPS", and immediately think of how people used to get brutally killed in an +18 fashion in plaza, all for basically looking at someone wrong. I think, with the way gang roleplay is right now, it is feasible to regulate how KPS is used.
People who are active gang ROLEPLAYERS can usually agree on how the community has evolved, and I, for one, think would be able to maturely address and produce the added danger, risk, and somber writing necessary to base a narrative around non-consented KPS. At the very least, I know that Immertreu would mourn any member who died, and sentimentally address the act of killing during brawls, kidnappings, etc.
That being said, I think this means that the people who qualify for being "amateur gangs" should be regulated tighter. This means that a gang should, at a minimum, have a reputation for following the rules, actually ROLEPLAY, and have an established IC presence- which is basically how amateur gangs are ran now.
I don't think that people who are not actively trying to gang roleplay or involve themselves in organized crime, should be liable for being KPSed by gangs with 30+ members in it. The goal of KPS in gang roleplay shouldn't be to wrack up a body count of civilians who have nothing to do with the gangs that are actively rivaling your own. The "goal" of KPS should be what YOUR character is killing another character for. I believe that type of motive should only be held between people who are actually on a gang's roster.
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Winters
Level 18
Ididn't write this in the original message, but I am not fully advocating for KPS to be brought back, I am asking for more of a compromise between old and new permissions. I also remember mobbing police, and the part of dummy characters was kind of true, which is why I advocated for the reworked system, which is way more strict.
And what you said in the last few paragraphs is completely true, and I don't feel like pipebacking, but I was explicitly promoting KPS, and shunning GoreRP. I feel like with added rules, KPS on people, with heavier limitations, would be possible.
At the end of the day, KPS doesn't need to be readded, and (in my opinion,) there should just be a change with higher-end perms, like majors, to make them more threatening, but nowhere near as discusting as their 2019 counterpart. I feel like the ability to POTENTIALLY cause permanent damage to a character with majors, IA by removing that rule about no forced compound fractures, and making it so you had to roll of 2 maybe at the hospital to see if you regained full function would suffice. It moreso fits the idea of a punishment fitting the act.
Winters
Level 18
About that: I was thinking of a middleground when I made this.
Of course, I feel like the rules about police arrests were way too lenient. I feel like if a gang member gets life (Or above what would be a 50 year sentence's IC counterpart) or death without bail (or with an extremely high bail) (Both of these factors have to he true at the same time) the gangs would have an actual reason to kill officers.
Of course, this change would make cop-killing less rampant, but as somebody who worked for KPD, on a server based on realism, you should know that cop-killings do happen in crime organizations, for way less severe things. Some evil people exist IRL, and—for realism's sake—most likely do in SRP.
Now for gangs, I already explained that permissions involving GangRP should be HEAVILY limited.
The only time civlians / ameteur gangs can touch KPS would be during a vendetta (when somebody in their family / gang gets murdered. And they will only gain it on the killers (IF the killer was unmasked.)
Majors won't lead to KPS the same way they used to. If people major you twice (or actually end up disabling your character, like I said above, then only YOU get KPS.
KPS being unpassable also adds another layer of "security." Especially with my proposal FOR kps.
Of course though, this thread was about finding a comprimise between the old system of KPS, and the new permissions system. Like I said above, Majors getting a slight increase (Nowhere near as bloody as it used to be,) would be amazing, and the ability to POTENTIALLY disable somebody would solve the crime-x-punishment problem.
