Police Raid Revamp

[NoZinth]

Players in the faction already have access to commands and utilities that require a lot of trust, including the jail command, pat down command, tasers/tranquilizers, etc. If the problem is trusting these players, then they shouldn't have access to any of these in the first place.

This would essentially be the same as a staff member going through someone's chest and finding weapons, or other items that officers often confiscate. The only difference is that the officer themselves will be doing it; I sure wouldn't want an officer going through my belongings if I did a bad thing, but I also wouldn't want a staff member doing it, either. If they're afraid any officer may take an item they're not supposed to, or have suspicion they have, they're more than welcome to ask a staff member to check the container's logs. I feel as if, especially with the boundaries in place with the plugin, that the faction can be trusted with this sort of command.

Regardless, we're more than open to suggestions on any way to rework the way we do raids that doesn't involve waiting for a staff member to arrive.


This is a great point. Officers are already allowed to pat down players and have the ability to steal their items, but in my year and a half of being in the faction, I can't recall it ever happening. Despite the pat down being (technically) consented, there's still the possibility of it happening. This plugin would have even MORE moderation than the pat down command, which makes it unreasonable to say that players can't be trusted with the plugin suggested.

Staff members are alot more responsible with their permissions than KPD would be, they've alot more duties and are trusted alot more. This definitely shouldn't be a thing given the backlog of things needing to be fixed and created we have currently by our developers

 

[Ghostfire]

Not Really true when your inventory is a very small piece of what other players have in their properties, KPD should definitely not be held above other players to a point where they can literally go through ALL their things hence why staff is necessary.

Most players keep the majority of their valuable items on them, anyway, such as vehicles, cosmetic items, etc. Sure, their property can have a lot of things in them as well, but officers have no reason to take anything other than weapons, nor would they. Even if they DO (which, is very unlikely), the moderation intended for the plugin wouldn't allow them to even have the items for more than 24 hours.

I think the statement that officers are held above other players is a little unfair; it's not that officers are held above other players in the aspect that they have more permissions than them to do things, it's that it's a necessity for them to perform their jobs. If this were the case, we'd be able to say that officers are already above normal players with their access to the things they already have now, even though they have access to these permissions SPECIFICALLY to fulfill their duties. Why have staff members do it when they can be self sufficient, given the moderation?

Staff members are alot more responsible with their permissions than KPD would be, they've alot more duties and are trusted alot more. This definitely shouldn't be a thing given the backlog of things needing to be fixed and created we have currently by our developers

I can't really recall the last time there's been an issue with officers abusing any of their utilities/commands with players outside of training purposes with their faction. As I've stated, the amount of moderation going into this plugin would essentially remove any worry for players or staff to worry about its abuse. Yes, staff members are meant to be (and are) very responsible with their permissions, but officers aren't exempt from responsibility either. I agree that this plugin may not be as important as other aspects of the server which may need fixing or adding, however, if it's deemed suitable to implement then that's all we're asking for, even if it's at the back of the line.

If you have any suggestions to improve the plugin in any way, please address it here! I'm aware that my suggestion may not be perfect, but considering the moderation and convenience going into it, it's not a terrible idea.

 

[Infi]

Players in the faction already have access to commands and utilities that require a lot of trust, including the jail command, pat down command, tasers/tranquilizers, etc. If the problem is trusting these players, then they shouldn't have access to any of these in the first place.

This would essentially be the same as a staff member going through someone's chest and finding weapons, or other items that officers often confiscate. The only difference is that the officer themselves will be doing it; I sure wouldn't want an officer going through my belongings if I did a bad thing, but I also wouldn't want a staff member doing it, either. Although I'm aware that staff members are players of the community whom we can trust more than most others, it's unfair to assume that officers can't be trusted at all. If they're afraid any officer may take an item they're not supposed to, or have suspicion they have, they're more than welcome to ask a staff member to check the container's logs. I feel as if, especially with the boundaries in place with the plugin, that the faction can be trusted with this sort of command.

Regardless, we're more than open to suggestions on any way to rework the way we do raids that doesn't involve waiting for a staff member to arrive.


This is a great point. Officers are already allowed to pat down players and have the ability to steal their items, but in my year and a half of being in the faction, I can't recall it ever happening. Despite the pat down being (technically) consented, there's still the possibility of it happening. This plugin would have even MORE moderation than the pat down command, which makes it unreasonable to say that players can't be trusted with the plugin suggested.

As cam said sure KPD have quite a bit of power but the argument “we already have power so we should have more” is relatively redundant when it boils down to going through every bit of players personal belongings. It’s just not something normal players should ever have access to do. Especially the ability to just walk into anyones apartment whenever you want.

 

[NoZinth]

Most players keep the majority of their valuable items on them, anyway, such as vehicles, cosmetic items, etc. Sure, their property can have a lot of things in them as well, but officers have no reason to take anything other than weapons, nor would they. Even if they DO (which, is very unlikely), the moderation intended for the plugin wouldn't allow them to even have the items for more than 24 hours.

I think the statement that officers are held above other players is a little unfair; it's not that officers are held above other players in the aspect that they have more permissions than them to do things, it's that it's a necessity for them to perform their jobs. If this were the case, we'd be able to say that officers are already above normal players with their access to the things they already have now, even though they have access to these permissions SPECIFICALLY to fulfill their duties. Why have staff members do it when they can be self sufficient, given the moderation?

I can't really recall the last time there's been an issue with officers abusing any of their utilities/commands with players outside of training purposes with their faction. As I've stated, the amount of moderation going into this plugin would essentially remove any worry for players or staff to worry about its abuse. Yes, staff members are meant to be (and are) very responsible with their permissions, but officers aren't exempt from responsibility either. I agree that this plugin may not be as important as other aspects of the server which may need fixing or adding, however, if it's deemed suitable to implement then that's all we're asking for, even if it's at the back of the line.

If you have any suggestions to improve the plugin in any way, please address it here! I'm aware that my suggestion may not be perfect, but considering the moderation and convenience going into it, it's not a terrible idea.

My suggestion instead:

Don't make this plugin, we continue to punish players who move weapons from an apartment after someone was arrested and are waiting for the place to he raided. To check if this has already happened while waiting for staff, the member of staff can just check core protect logs for if anyone entered the property in the time KPD were potentially waiting.

 

[Ghostfire]

As cam said sure KPD have quite a bit of power but the argument “we already have power so we should have more” is relatively redundant when it boils down to going through every bit of players personal belongings. It’s just not something normal players should ever have access to do. Especially the ability to just walk into anyones apartment whenever you want.

I think you may have misread or skipped over part of my suggestion; you'd be blowing it way out of proportion by saying officers can just walk into anyone's apartment whenever they want. As I've stated, we'd be using the command (which, is logged in a channel public to every staff member/officer), and afterwards, we'd manually log our usage of the command as well as other information related to the raid.

This is NOT giving us the ability to open containers/doors as we please, in contrary to how staff members can. “We already have power so we should have more” is also not my argument, whilst I am using the trend that not a single officer has abused their permissions (at least in the past year and a half) as an example, my main argument is that the amount of moderation going into the plugin just wouldn't allow for any misuse of it whatsoever. Meaning, regardless of if officers already have permission to do many things, it'd still be a viable idea.

My suggestion instead:

Don't make this plugin, we continue to punish players who move weapons from an apartment after someone was arrested and are waiting for the place to he raided. To check if this has already happened while waiting for staff, the member of staff can just check core protect logs for if anyone entered the property in the time KPD were potentially waiting.

While this works, it can still be inconvenient for officers who wait longer than they should to carry out a task that takes around ~5 minutes. Not only that, but it can also be unfair to players who may not be aware of an incoming police raid, take their friend's weapon from an apartment, only to be told by staff that they're being warned and their weapons are being taken from them. Yes, this has happened before around November/December of 2022; even if something weren't to go down EXACTLY like this again, it could still create relative problems. This essentially continues the threat of potential problems that would be a lot more common when compared to the idea proposed.

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Overall, I just don't think the staff team nor playerbase should, or even could worry much about such a highly moderated plugin with such little maintenance.

 

[Infi]

I think you may have misread or skipped over part of my suggestion; you'd be blowing it way out of proportion by saying officers can just walk into anyone's apartment whenever they want. As I've stated, we'd be using the command (which, is logged in a channel public to every staff member/officer), and afterwards, we'd manually log our usage of the command as well as other information related to the raid.

This is NOT giving us the ability to open containers/doors as we please, in contrary to how staff members can. “We already have power so we should have more” is also not my argument, whilst I am using the trend that not a single officer has abused their permissions (at least in the past year and a half) as an example, my main argument is that the amount of moderation going into the plugin just wouldn't allow for any misuse of it whatsoever. Meaning, regardless of if officers already have permission to do many things, it'd still be a viable idea.

While this works, it can still be inconvenient for officers who wait longer than they should to carry out a task that takes around ~5 minutes. Not only that, but it can also be unfair to players who may not be aware of an incoming police raid, take their friend's weapon from an apartment, only to be told by staff that they're being warned and their weapons are being taken from them. Yes, this has happened before around November/December of 2022; even if something weren't to go down EXACTLY like this again, it could still create relative problems. This essentially continues the threat of potential problems that would be a lot more common when compared to the idea proposed.

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Overall, I just don't think the staff team nor playerbase should, or even could worry much about such a highly moderated plugin with such little maintenance.

You mentioned that staff sometimes just aren’t on to perform raids so in that moment what’s realistically stopping an officer from waiting until staff are offline to do some serious damage? Like we’ve said it’s just not feasible to be allowing normal players so much ability for something that doesn’t take long for staff to be available to perform

 

[Ghostfire]

You mentioned that staff sometimes just aren’t on to perform raids so in that moment what’s realistically stopping an officer from waiting until staff are offline to do some serious damage? Like we’ve said it’s just not feasible to be allowing normal players so much ability for something that doesn’t take long for staff to be available to perform

The things stopping them are,

1. The Discord channel showing them using the raid command
2. The lack of a raid log
3. The items in their inventory/property that clearly aren't theirs

Leading to,

1. The loss of the items they stole
2. The loss of their position in the faction
3. A potential warning/ban on the server

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If any officer WERE to attempt go on and do some serious damage, this could be stopped by an additional safeguard can be added in the form of a timer on using the command.

Or, if it's even possible, only allow officers to take diamond swords (the item used for weapons) from chests. This is certainly pushing it, however, if it's possible it'd be another great safety net.

 

[Infi]

The things stopping them are,

1. The Discord channel showing them using the raid command
2. The lack of a raid log
3. The items in their inventory/property that clearly aren't theirs

Leading to,

1. The loss of the items they stole
2. The loss of their position in the faction
3. A potential warning/ban on the server

---

If any officer WERE to attempt go on and do some serious damage, this could be stopped by an additional safeguard can be added in the form of a timer on using the command.

Or, if it's even possible, only allow officers to take diamond swords (the item used for weapons) from chests. This is certainly pushing it, however, if it's possible it'd be another great safety net.

Say an officer raids an apartment and just starts taking items out that don’t correlate to the raid. Those items won’t be reported and inventories obviously won’t be checked until something is reported by the player who got their items stolen. By that time the officer would’ve already made plans to move/sell the items that don’t belong to them and it’d be more of a hassle for staff to chase down the items than it would be to simply monitor the raid. It’s a flawed system and it still boils down to being wise not to trust normal players with opening whatever they want whenever they want despite having “restrictions”.

 

[6Pancake]

An alternative to this command if we're not keen on trusting players to open chests could possibly just letting them scan it instead. In short terms, they'd execute the police raid command, specifying the region, be able to open doors & trapdoors, but then any chests that they right click would give them one of two endings:
1. If there's weapons, it would place the weaponry in their inventory & tell them so in their chat, removing it from the chest
or 2. If there's no weapons, it'd simply tell the officer that there are no weapons.

You only tend to have weapons removed in raids and anything more could be communicated with staff if absolutely necessary (i.e., a warrant to specifically look at any suspicious books they have!)

 

[NoZinth]

An alternative to this command if we're not keen on trusting players to open chests could possibly just letting them scan it instead. In short terms, they'd execute the police raid command, specifying the region, be able to open doors & trapdoors, but then any chests that they right click would give them one of two endings:
1. If there's weapons, it would place the weaponry in their inventory & tell them so in their chat, removing it from the chest
or 2. If there's no weapons, it'd simply tell the officer that there are no weapons.

You only tend to have weapons removed in raids and anything more could be communicated with staff if absolutely necessary (i.e., a warrant to specifically look at any suspicious books they have!)

This is a much better alternative, W Alex

 

[Drnqk]

+1

I really doubt that the power given to players is a problem, nor it could end up being one, for the time that Ive been in the KPD, I’ve learned how close you get with eachother around, a lot of trust is built oocly and friendships get made, now apart from putting relationships on risk for possibly trying to steal an item, thing that I’ve never seen from a police officer before when patting down, and by the way people tend to carry their valuables on them rather than leaving them at their place. Anyways all this trust that had been built up would break and for no reason as the items would be returned and the only consequence of the act would be you getting a roster warning, server warn or even ban, Im not familiar with the severity of those acts.

Now in the suggestion above it says that corporal+ would be able to do such thing, which is fair, ranks below this one cant really raid on their own, and from what I know and have seen its not easy to first, get in KPD as it is a massive wave full of intresting applications and then getting not one, but two promotions to get to corporal, rank that is not given to anyone and that is hard to reach as they are limited spots and our higher ups highly discuss about who to promote or not based on their own reasons, where one of those for sure is their trust on them (The P.O’s), it seems quite impossible to me to see an officer do such thing, afterall officers go into more tests and examinations than what we have icly for people to learn about ourselves and know how we are so that we dont engage in inappropriate situations. Police Officers or for example in other factions, Team Captains, BMD’s and others that are not doing their job correctly on their factions dont stick around for a long time, and get kicked usually before in this case, reaching the corporal rank, if you are still on the faction it means that you’ve earned respect from the ones above and around you and you have not put that trust that was given to you over or on the line. I do believe that Yonio, Eco and other higher ups’s decisions and way to judge is, and will be correct as KPD works perfectly thanks to them, they know the power they are giving to each member and believe that they deserve it, otherwise they wouldnt grant them that power. If trust was the real issue why are cadets given taser, pepper spray and other powerful items and commands or other things to gain information the exact first day? Now I dont know if you people are familiar but at the KPD we have a chest full of custom masks and weapons, and im pretty sure that if someone was to steal something from somewhere it would be that chest first before stealing from a random player and taking a pocky stick, now thats just an example, but this chest is just more proof that there is a lot of trust within us officers, otherwise people would be taking and hiding weapons from that chest, left and right. I’d also like to add that Higher Ups are usually around for raids and like going to them, I dont remember ever going to a raid without at least 1 higher up, they’ll be checking that we make things right, helping us and supporting

I dont see a bad side to this suggestion, I can only think of positive things that come with it, Staff would have less to worry about and wouldnt have to spend a long time checking and searching for chests around the apartment or house looking item by item to make sure they dont skip an item.
Officers wouldnt have to wait for their ticket to be read or for a moderator to log on to just start the raid.
We would also have better logs of raids and a bot doing the job for people.

This is a big +1 and im not even corporal to do such thing as a cop, Ive just been in these situations waiting for ages and ages for someone to open the door to the point that we just go back to the station without the raid, then having to go back the next day after they cleared the apartment of weapons.

 

[cho0ii]

KPD should definitely not be held above other players to a point where they can literally go through ALL their things hence why staff is necessary.

I am still not sure what you mean by this. We have the opportunity to pat people down, we can steal items then so I don't see what the problem is with property chests as well. Also - I have never heard of anyone stealing players items when patting down, not once.

Also I'm hiding alot of weapons thank you :D

What we're looking for!! to the cell with you!!

 

[Hirathex]

I think Alex's suggestion is the most feasible way for this to work. However, I'd just like to mention that being trusted to search inventories and being trusted to search entire apartments are two entirely different things. As KPD myself, I know our current officers wouldn't steal anything. But if they did, most people would notice when something is taken out of their inventory rather quickly. If something's taken from an apartment, even just one thing, that's out of several huge chests and it'll take time to notice.

 

[6Pancake]

Another downside would be that even if cadets/PO's cannot raid within the current KPD rules, the permission would have to be given to the policeofficer group, which is given to every officer, including cadets, unless the plugin is restricted to Detectives, meaning I find it highly unlikely that it'll be allowed to search through chests themselves and be able to freely take out every single item as they wish to do so, even with preventative measures in place

 

[SIMPL3Z]

+1 on Alex's suggestion of the suggestion

 

[UhmMoe]

+1
I already believe that this is a good suggestion and adding a raid command would be so much more helpful because staff have lives and they won't be there 24/7 to help out, and that's not necessarily bad but for the circumstance, it's very unfortunate. I do think that giving the command to a CPL+ wouldn't be the best Idea but instead SGT+ would be more realistic as most of us are on anyways and giving players with the more trained and trusted role would ease the community more. And although we go through players' inventories.

Alex said this could be a better alternative but I'm fine with both. These sound like major helpful ideas and honestly extremely cool.

 

[ClownRP]

Another downside would be that even if cadets/PO's cannot raid within the current KPD rules, the permission would have to be given to the policeofficer group, which is given to every officer, including cadets, unless the plugin is restricted to Detectives, meaning I find it highly unlikely that it'll be allowed to search through chests themselves and be able to freely take out every single item as they wish to do so, even with preventative measures in place

trueeee but you could also make a custom crowbar item for this instead so that its not based off a tag but an item instead. (irdk how plug-ins work or how feasible this is but it'd be pretty cool if it was)

 

[Drnqk]

Another downside would be that even if cadets/PO's cannot raid within the current KPD rules, the permission would have to be given to the policeofficer group, which is given to every officer, including cadets, unless the plugin is restricted to Detectives, meaning I find it highly unlikely that it'll be allowed to search through chests themselves and be able to freely take out every single item as they wish to do so, even with preventative measures in place

Ok but if someone who is not in the rank to do such thing was to use the command a log would be made in the channel right away and they would not only be doing this without permission as they didnt fill in the raid log, but also they did it when they shouldnt have, leading to a worse issue for them, as they would be enrolled in a worse situation, thing that no one wants to get involved on, after this game logs can be checked to see who took what and where giving players the items back. This only happening if the officer didnt want to comply and slide the items back, which would be very weird, as he would be leading himself outside of the KPD.

I think Alex's suggestion is the most feasible way for this to work. However, I'd just like to mention that being trusted to search inventories and being trusted to search entire apartments are two entirely different things. As KPD myself, I know our current officers wouldn't steal anything. But if they did, most people would notice when something is taken out of their inventory rather quickly. If something's taken from an apartment, even just one thing, that's out of several huge chests and it'll take time to notice.

Alex’s suggestion does sound pretty nice and if something like that can be made it would be amazing, but as it is much more work when programming it, I do still believe that the first suggestion made by GhostFireSwords with a few minor details could end up being just perfect, we cant base a -1 on and “if this” or a “what if” if we did everytime we could always find a bad side to a suggestion and try to kill it because of that or completely change it, If CPL isnt enough then make it from SGT, if the big issue is trust in our CPL officers that dont really look to become rich on the server or take items from the chests, but what they want to do is fun and fast situations where a raid with this revamp would be considered as one of those, Now you said how most people wouldn’t notice how you stole this or that from someone’s apartment, but it might be just easier to know if someone stole from a raid than from a pat down, as there is no pat down log that I know of atleast myself. And these raids would be logged with the IGN of the officer keeping better track of situations, if the next issue is how to know what items where taken, u ask the victim and the officer oocly and if the officer lies then he’d be lying to a staff member oocly and I dont knowww how bad this can be to the point that it might reach to be a ban or not but it would for sure give everyone a worse look on them and it would end up in a lost of trust of a lot of people with them.

 

[6Pancake]

I don't really think there's a reason for officers to have access to EVERY single item in a player's chest, as raids are usually performed to search for weaponry and that's mostly it. You don't really even take metal bats or masks when raiding apartments, so an easier alternative to "What if they steal items?" is to just not give them access to items that they don't need to access in the first place, and as I stated earlier, if in the off chance that you do need a warrant for something more than just weapons, you could go back to asking staff to check for whatever it is that you need.

 

[England!]

+1