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Removal of majors when KO'd

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ThatBurningFox

Level 9
ThatBurningFox
ThatBurningFox
Omega+
What's your Minecraft Username?: ThatBurningFox
What's the title of your suggestion?: Removal of majors when KO'd

What's your suggestion?:
A removal of the rule listed here:
9.3c Unconsciousness: Upon being knocked out via fists, you may carry out major assault permissions on each character involved in putting you into an unconscious state.

How will this benefit the server and community?:
Plain and simple: this rule is outright dubious and unneeded. I understand that, in context, being knocked out is dangerous. I understand that unconsciousness is NO joke. However, nobody RPs them as seriously as they should be and KO's happen way too easily to begin with. Like- RP fights are over in three hits due to combat RP's standard rules, that default to the opposition being "KO'd" in order to be considered a victor (if you can even consider it RP to begin with half of the time) are the norm- they're the main way fights are handled and there's no real CHOICE in the matter. You hit someone three times, they're KO'd, that's the standard.

...What??????

This leads to far too easy of perm baiting - and perms for what? Something blown COMPLETELY out of proportion? If you have a fight on school grounds, or even in the street for that matter - and you get KO'd - escalating that to literally kidnapping someone, promptly knocking them unconscious and then outright removing one of their limbs? Which is a permanent scar on their psyche? Which is absolutely far worse, far more vile, than the mild inconvenience of spending 5 OOC minutes KO'd?

Seriously??????? Like take a scenario of a Grade 12 bullying a Grade 10. Grade 10 lashes out. Grade 10 wins miraculously in the fight due to GODLY awful rolls on the Grade 12's part. Suddenly the Grade 12 can remove the Grade 10's leg because ":( u knocked me out...!!! *snarls with hunger for perms*"

It goes beyond just revenge, it simply makes no sense for the average person to do such a thing. Yes, the rules say you need a valid IC motive, but you know for a fact that doesn't stop anyone from digging to come up with some obscure reason. And in the end, the rule is there to say they can. So they will.

In my opinion, with the rules, minors should beget minors.

A KO can stem solely from minor permissions, much like the breaking of a bone, which depending on circumstances should also not infer major permissions??? IMO???

Like. If you happen to consequentially break a bone in a scuffle, say, a lower rib or a knuckle or your nose, etc, that's to be expected from a rough fight, obviously? Of course, actively going out of your way to break someone's leg, fair enough, that's a lot more serious...

...But EVEN THEN???? I think limb/eye removal is just. Too much. It's just... wildly edgy. It's unnecessary. It makes no sense. And it can just be abused way, way, too easily. Why it hasn't been changed is beyond me, personally.

Adjusting this rule should massively help the community because it will cut down on just how unnecessarily grim things are. Yes, this stuff happens in the real world, I know, but to the level it happens on the server?

People genuinely just do not fear consequences or getting caught at all. Even if they have a mask, even if they take STEPS to avoid it meticulously like a mastermind, there should ALWAYS be that fear of getting caught, leading an average person to step back and ask themselves:

"Is it really worth taking this guy's arm because we knocked each other out at school?"

Thank you.

---

Small Addendum: at the VERY LEAST, make it so it's STRICTLY with weapons if there must be a KO clause for major permissions. Unarmed fights leading to limb removal is just a nono.
 

ilovemyplane

Level 109
ilovemyplanex2
ilovemyplanex2
Omega+
Not gonna lie, this makes a lot of sense. As someone who’s had to spend at least 400k+ on all of my characters who needed prosthetics, most of them lost them for no actual logical reasoning. Karl, as a prime example, can be pretty annoying to some! He always has been, but does that really mean he should have a missing arm and leg? Not really. He did fuck with a gang once a while back so that, in my opinion, would have been a valid reason to take a leg or an arm. But in most of the other cases, it’s been for something that IRL wouldn’t have been logical.

Perm hungry people are also why I don’t pass out majors where they can do what they want freely, which includes taking a limb. At most, I’ll give consented torture perms but that’s it. I don’t want to waste another 75k on a prosthetic when I could be using that money elsewhere.

TDLR; Majors cost people more than what they should, like money, when poorer players may need the 75k they will be spending on a prosthetic. Perm hungry people are also a major problem.

+1
 
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NoZinth

Level 202
Senior Admin
Employee Lead
Gang Lead
NoZinth
NoZinth
Omega+
You cannot major someone after they've Knocked you out in school, it's a safe zone and no major permissions can be gained there. Being out on the street is a completely different scenario, involving gang violence into the situation. I do believe this situation has been created due to an IC situation, this rule has been in place for several years and has been a necessary stepping stone into gaining permissions on other players and allowing "GangRP" to escalate beyond hitting each other in the head 3 times. I strongly recommend researching further into gang / criminal roleplay and how the permissions work to avoid getting your character into undesirable situations.
 

Infi

Level 148
Moderator
Government Lead
Builder
oInfi
oInfi
Omega+
IC motive is something that exists and is enforced. If you feel as if a situation lacks the motive for permissions to be carried out, you can argue it and call staff to deal with the situation. In the end permissions is based entirely off of the consequences of your actions and the motive behind doing it. If you do not wish for your character to be majored, there are methods to disarm individuals and get away without having to knock someone out.

That said, SchoolRP's preferred method of combat is "P2L", which is the act of honoring ones actions based off of the statistics and experience both parties have. That is another way to avoid perm baiting.

In the end it's a matter of motive, combat preference, and learning from your mistakes. Removing the ability to act on major permissions upon getting knocked out would take a major hit to GangRP and wouldn't be sustainable for activity.

also what nozinth said
 

Yonio

Level 330
YonioTheNacho
YonioTheNacho
Omega+
Quick tip on this: If you wish to avoid giving away major assault permissions, don't go for the head. Simply fight by hitting different parts of the body. If the other party is a good roleplayer, they'll PainRP properly and follow your same strategy, thus granting no major assault permissions on neither party. If they don't PainRP & wish to go for the head no matter what, you should not roleplay with them, as they're probably not a good roleplayer. The only way for people to start taking roleplay seriously is by ignoring (not avoidrping; that's a server rule) these players and focusing on others who want to focus more on roleplay.
 

Mialyansa

Level 86
Quick tip on this: If you wish to avoid giving away major assault permissions, don't go for the head. Simply fight by hitting different parts of the body. If the other party is a good roleplayer, they'll PainRP properly and follow your same strategy, thus granting no major assault permissions on neither party. If they don't PainRP & wish to go for the head no matter what, you should not roleplay with them, as they're probably not a good roleplayer. The only way for people to start taking roleplay seriously is by ignoring (not avoidrping; that's a server rule) these players and focusing on others who want to focus more on roleplay.
So how am i supposed to stop someone from hitting my characters if they dont pian rp properly. And what is consider good pain rp?

These kind of people dont go away by ignoring them to be honest.
 
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Infi

Level 148
Moderator
Government Lead
Builder
oInfi
oInfi
Omega+
So how am i supposed to stop someone from hitting my characters if they dont pian rp properly. And what is consider good pain rp?
Here is a guide explaining what proper PainRP is!

 

Mialyansa

Level 86
+1 ignoring this problem is something that is hurting the community and i think administrators should know by now. Testimonies of perm baiting are constantly coming out and nothing is being done about it.

Students rpers, criminals rp, jock rpers... all of them look down on thus rule and their exploiters. There is a reason why there are so many gangs about intelligence and cults, they want to distance themselves from whom they consider is ruining gang rp reputation and the gang rpers reputation.

However i dont want staff to be ultra precise about the rule, just keep the major perms away from the partypoopers.

If words dont work then rules will.
 
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Infi

Level 148
Moderator
Government Lead
Builder
oInfi
oInfi
Omega+
"Once the required K.O. points (4) are met, the character will be knocked out for a total of 5 OOC minutes."
I thought it was KO required only 3 hits?
It is 3 hits. The post is probably slightly outdated
 

NoZinth

Level 202
Senior Admin
Employee Lead
Gang Lead
NoZinth
NoZinth
Omega+
"Once the required K.O. points (4) are met, the character will be knocked out for a total of 5 OOC minutes."
I thought it was KO required only 3 hits?
It's an old guide from when there used to be 4 KO points instead of 3
 

ThatBurningFox

Level 9
ThatBurningFox
ThatBurningFox
Omega+
Thread starter
You cannot major someone after they've Knocked you out in school, it's a safe zone and no major permissions can be gained there. Being out on the street is a completely different scenario, involving gang violence into the situation. I do believe this situation has been created due to an IC situation, this rule has been in place for several years and has been a necessary stepping stone into gaining permissions on other players and allowing "GangRP" to escalate beyond hitting each other in the head 3 times. I strongly recommend researching further into gang / criminal roleplay and how the permissions work to avoid getting your character into undesirable situations.
I created it because I heard from someone that majors were forfeited after a KO. And I was genuinely baffled by such a thing, so I looked into it and yeah. Here we are.

I do agree it's good to have escalation, but the way it's done is like, 0-100, with this particular circumstance. A KO is not on the same level as a limb removal and thus should not escalate so quickly I'd think. Hence the thread creation.

The longevity of the rule's existence does not mean it is a good one. Change is happening in a lot of areas. Shouldn't this be one of them?
 

NoZinth

Level 202
Senior Admin
Employee Lead
Gang Lead
NoZinth
NoZinth
Omega+
+1 ignoring this problem is something that is hurting the community and i think administrators should know by now. Testimonies of perm baiting are constantly coming out and nothing is being done about it.
If words dont work then rules will.
You're missing the point with the message they're trying to convey here, the recommendation to ignore those characters was a recommendation for your character, not for you out of character
 

NoZinth

Level 202
Senior Admin
Employee Lead
Gang Lead
NoZinth
NoZinth
Omega+
I created it because I heard from someone that majors were forfeited after a KO. And I was genuinely baffled by such a thing, so I looked into it and yeah. Here we are.

I do agree it's good to have escalation, but the way it's done is like, 0-100, with this particular circumstance. A KO is not on the same level as a limb removal.
You are correct, a KO is minor permissions and a limb removal is Major Permissions.
 

Yonio

Level 330
YonioTheNacho
YonioTheNacho
Omega+
Ignoring them is an option. If they decide to try and bait permissions, that is a rule break that's punishable. The current GangRP community has some groups purely focused on acting on the default permissions rather than on developing a cool story. These people should not be interacted with in order to let them know they aren't interesting from a RP perspective. It is not up to us to change their behavior; even if we do go through with making changes to the rulebook, they will always focus their mindset on using permissions because that's the bare minimum they will stick to. The only way to change this is by letting them know they should change. How? By showing them you don't want to roleplay with them.
 

Mialyansa

Level 86
The only way to change this is by letting them know they should change. How? By showing them you don't want to roleplay with them.
'A new form of gangrp!' (link)
"I suggest that because having people chopping off legs just for a knockout doesn’t make sense and it is an act of raw violence with no lore behind it."
11/11/2022

This has been a problem for more than a year, yet how much time is it needed for these permissions baiters to change?

I dont like having to show this much opposition but this strategy is just not working. If it was effective this wouldnt be a problem anymore, however we face the same dilemma. Preventing the problem is much better than having to tell people to 'read the rules' and 'know your rights' after they were mislead into losing their characters whole set of limbs.

With my deepest respect for the administration team, i do not look foward for another year of this situation and neither does the SRP community.
 

philbertman42

Level 146
philbertman42
philbertman42
Notable
I'm not knowledgeable enough in gang / criminal roleplay to offer a meaningful solution, but I can recognize this as an issue that's worth more of a solution than "some people are just bad at roleplay, ignore them."

For a lot of these issues, I think we need to take a step back and ask, "is this rule/feature necessary for a school oriented roleplay?" If the answer is no, then it should be changed.

Also, I (philbertman42) hate gang roleplayers.
 

klarzs

Level 8
4CD
4CD
Omega+
The permission system should just be changed entirely/reworked, it's too complicated in some instances, too vague in other areas, and is easily baitable.
 

tayfun

Level 81
tays2fly
tays2fly
Rich
+1 big time.
ignoring people is not going to solve the underlying (and frankly unnecessarily nonsensical) issue.
 
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